2005

NAOKI TAKIZAWA: FIND A UNIQUE IDENTITY IN THE FASHION WORLD, WHERE CONSTANT CHANGE IS REQUIRED

Dobrila Denegri: In the “SHOW & DISPLAY” talk series, we wanted to deal with the issues concerning innovative approaches to display and different manners to redefine exhibitive models, highlighting interdisciplinary relations between art and other disciplines: design, fashion, new technologies, architecture, art theory, etc. 
Therefore, I would like to start our conversation by recalling one of the most extraordinary exhibitions that I had a chance to see in recent years: “Making Things” at the Foundation Cartier in 1998/99. I consider “Making Things” one of the best examples of presenting the tendency of merging art, clothing design, technology, and research. I think that it was a real “exhibitive event”, a sort of “performative show” more than just a mere fashion exhibition. 
Could you tell more about the concept and guidelines that were important in exhibiting clothes, and in particular, what are the similarities and differences in showing collections in the context of an exhibition (within the art space) and a fashion show? 
What is crucial in each of these modes of presentation?

Naoki Takizawa: In the exhibitions at museums or in other spaces for contemporary art, it is more interesting to show different aspects of fashion, the background and the process of creation, rather than display clothes. 
In ordinary exhibitions, we usually see static mannequins dressed and arranged, and the effect is not as strong as when people actually wear the clothes and move around. Through the exhibition, though, we can try to create a different way of experiencing the process of making clothes, allowing the public to discover all those elements that they wouldn’t perceive even if they saw clothes being worn by someone. 
On the other hand, the point of a fashion show is to convey the message of the designer during a short time on the stage.
Although each item is important, it is essential to communicate the theme of the season, the trend, the designer’s general thinking and understanding of the present time through the whole collection from the first appearance to the last. To achieve this goal, we need to create a show with a broader perspective. Therefore, we have to consider questions like: what type of woman should be featured? At what sort of place should the show be held? What kind of music will we use? How will we do the lighting? How will the show be presented? What about the makeup, hair, invitations and press kit? These various elements are combined into a fifteen-minute show. 
The work resembles that of making a short film rather than a static exhibition.

DD: In both cases, the main thing is to present garments; just the mode of presentation changes. 

NT: The points to be communicated are very different, depending on the style of the presentation, even though we do the same thing, that is, presenting clothes. Consequently, people can have a different experience depending on the presentation style.

DD: The Context of contemporary art was very important to the creativity of Issey Miyake, I could notice; in the ‘80s, one of the most important art magazines, Artforum, dedicated a cover page to him, and it was a rare case in that time that fashion was treated equally to art. On the other hand, Miyake created clothes, inviting some artists to collaborate with him, notably through the “Guest Artist Series” and similar experiences. 
Could you tell me more about the “Body Works” series of creations, as well as about exhibitions done with these collections within an art context, and about creative encounters between Miyake and other artists, including yourself, within the exhibitions realised later in the ‘90s, such as “Making Things”?

NT: The “Body Works” exhibition at the Museum of Decorative Arts was held shortly after I joined the Issey Miyake design studio. I can vividly recall that I was incredibly shocked as someone who had just entered the fashion business.
I think that “Body Works” was the exhibition that placed importance on fantasy at that time. At the same time, ten years later, the presentation in “Making Things” focused on the process of creation. 
Today, the background to the fashion era seems to have significantly changed from the time of the exhibition.

DD: Can you perceive the change in the reception of fashion from the time you joined Issey Miyake design studio till today? 

NT: I feel the role of fashion in people’s lives is different now from the ‘80s, when I was learning by working with Mr. Issey Miyake.
During the ‘70s and ‘80s up to the ‘90s, one could easily see people on the street dressed in the same style as the one that designers would present on stage at fashion shows. People were greatly influenced in their self-expression by the worldview of designers. They probably pursued their dreams in it and tried to create a living environment, starting with sharing their aesthetics.
Clothes still today serve as a means of self-expression. Also, clothing may function as a canvas that enhances the range of product designs associated with clothes. Thinking about these circumstances, designers assert themselves in a way, and at the same time, they try to achieve their dream of creating and conducting business. Under these circumstances, I continue to make clothes by trial.

DD: One of the general distinctions between art and fashion involves the temporal dimension; fashion is perceived as ephemeral, while art is supposed to be “eternal”. On the other hand, I remember a quote of Coco Chanel: “What you first like and then dislike is fashion / what you first dislike and then like is art.” But all this is changing more and more today. Art is accelerating its rhythms, and the dynamic of consumption of art is becoming much faster than before. Seems that the rules of fashion are dominating the art system as well. 
Still, I’m interested in how you perceive the question of time in fashion, and in your work, in your own creative experience. When we first met, I was struck by your observation that your work “lives” for six months and then starts to lose value. Could you tell me more about this dynamics?

NT: Basically, the code by which works are valued differs between the system of fashion and the system of art.
I don’t know much about the art world, but in the fashion industry, what you make needs to be fresh. It must be in season, which has an expiration date.
Needless to say, not all the works of fashion designers disappear. Many past and current clothes receive high marks, in fact.
Fortuny’s pleated dress, Chanel suits, Saint Laurent’s jacket, Dior’s dress and recently, Issey Miyake’s pleated clothing – these items were made according to the needs of the time and also exert an influence on the present time.
The fashion industry used to be led by high fashion, or haute couture. It was an industrial system for upper-class people based on an exclusive customer system.
Designers became dissatisfied with the haute couture system and, in the late ‘70s, set up the prêt-a-porter system. They wanted more people to wear their creations. From that time, designers’ works were suddenly made open to the public in the fashion business, although the clothes had been limited to the upper class. The haute couture system was maintained.
Nearly thirty years have passed since that time. Under the current fashion system, mass-produced clothes disappear from boutiques at the end of the season, with their price halved. This even applies to pieces, which the museums have appraised. In the current market system, what matters is adding extra value to a simple T-shirt. One of the important elements is achieving a good balance between the price, the design, the designer, the manufacturing process, and the overall quality. This is important even to general consumers.
Interestingly, the system itself is becoming the driving force for designers. Now, designers are more sensitive to what is happening around them. They feel what is needed at the moment, anticipating public tastes in the near future. In contrast to this harsh system of the fashion industry (which requires the designers to bring out works surprisingly quickly), the system may help them to polish their sense.
Even under this system and this environment, some brands like us simply manufacture items based on diligent research and development.
To find a unique identity in the fashion world, where constant change is required. And at the same time, we try to move ahead without persisting this identity. I think that is the meaning of our existence.
I am feeling that the time of exclusive or “high” art, such as haute couture, has ended in the art world, too, and the new system is now being constructed. The art world is actively taking a commercial approach, and like the fashion industry, it is targeting niche markets. It seems to me as though they are making products quite easily.
However, I think it is a form of the evolution of art.  The term “art”, which used to produce a special atmosphere, has become less exclusive, and more people have opportunities to enjoy artworks. It is important because I think that the role of art is to touch people and to influence their state of consciousness. 

DD: The practice of Miyake could be described through terms that are very common in the “artistic” vocabulary: constructivist approach in “Constructible Clothes” in the ‘70s, than there was a strong “sculptural” sense in the collections of ‘80s, like “Bodyworks”, than there is a “deconstructive and interactive” aspect of projects like “Just Before” in the ‘90s, just to name a few examples… 
What are the guidelines of the research today, and which concepts are you developing now? Also, you are an artist and designer yourself, and you have realised some collaborations with contemporary artists like Takashi Murakami, Chiho Aoshima, Aya Takano and others. Could you tell me more about this project and what was important for you in the process of creative dialogue with visual artists?

NT: The most important thing in collaboration with artists is to match the artist’s free conception and the designer’s conception, subject to various restricted conditions, with objectives. Stress is then applied from both sides, creating vibration and injecting energy into the work. The result is often better than we expect. It is very exciting.
When I collaborate with somebody, it is important for me to interpret the nature of the work. It is not a collaboration if someone’s painting or pattern is simply applied onto the clothes. I sense the essential part of the work of my partner, and replace it with the cloth. Some artists’ work is replaced with the lining of a work outfit, and the other artist’s work becomes an elaborate dress. Another artist’s work is converted into underwear or a three-dimensional object, such as a button. 
For me, mixing with different artists creates something unexpected. 
I believe it takes both of us to another level.

DD: Is there an artist that you would like to collaborate with in future? What aspects should be developed, according to you, in this interdisciplinary approach between artist and fashion designer?

NT: At this moment, I am interested in video artists and sculptors; these artists are somewhat difficult to associate with clothing. However, I would like to challenge myself in identifying which process to participate in and in creating a new process. It would be interesting if I were taken somewhere other than to a clothing store.

DD: Nowadays, Japan is perceived as a very “futuristic” culture, but at the same time very attached to its cultural identity and its tradition. In Miyake’s work, the revisiting of the tradition of Japan was very strong, so could you tell us more about this aspect of his work, and how it is reflected also in yours?
Linked to this question, I think, is also a question of the relationship between craft, manufacture, industry, mass production and distribution. How can one maintain quality and authenticity, and at the same time respond to the necessities of a global market?

NT: It is challenging to express the Japanese sense of beauty by using only a certain form. At the same time, language is not enough.
I think that the precious clothing of Issey Miyake that I have studied is undoubtedly an extension of Japanese notions of beauty. I still have a lot to learn from Miyake’s past works, no matter how the times change. Now I recall the term “design”. This word takes priority over others, such as “fashion”, “trend” or “mode” in Miyake’s thoughts. 
Cloths that have ergonomic details and that use unique methods of incorporating technologies into processes. Clothes even take into account how they are stored. Of course, material should not be just beautiful, but it should also be made after various aspects of research, and also cutting should minimise waste. 
I think today’s items that I design for Issey Miyake should be like this, even if the methodology is different. This idea does not only apply to my work as an Issey Miyake designer, but also to my constant goal of creation. Sometimes I find it difficult to insist on this idea under the current fashion system. Yet I dare to make clothes based on a strong awareness of this idea. This is because there is a strong requirement for something unique today. This applies to everything.

DD: In the time of constant technological advancement, what is your creative motto? 

NT: A new communication system between people has developed within a short time. And this system has integrated diverse worldviews. On the Internet, you can easily share information, and you may feel as though you are really experiencing something despite sitting in front of your computer. 
I think that human beings try to achieve a balance based on instinct when the situation becomes overwhelming. This makes changes. 
“Try to pursue uniqueness in the world based on integrated value” – that is what I am doing now.
When people’s awareness changes, the time is affected, and my ideal also changes. The role of a fashion designer may be to express the mood of the time. It is the work which relates to human life in a concrete manner. You can express yourself by putting on clothes, without explaining yourself in words. Also, on the contrary, clothes can cover up yourself like make-up.

DD: What do you consider the main motor of your creativity?

NT: The pleasure that I have in doing what I do, I enjoy my work. Also, through communication with the public, I can feel and understand the time. 
If you could create something naturally, feeling close to the customer, that would have power. Even if the value of my work instantly drops in the market, I am very happy when someone buys it with their valuable money and wears and keeps it lovingly in their closet.