2014

DOBRILA DENEGRI: I HAVE A CERTAIN SENSITIVITY BECAUSE I WAS ALWAYS A FOREIGNER

Adam Mazur: You’ve just said that you have finished your work in Toruń. What does this mean to you?

Dobrila Denegri: My contract in Toruń finished in December. We started the project for the retrospective of Gustav Metzger almost a year and a half ago, when we applied for an EEA Grant together with the co-curator of the show, Pontus Kyander. We got this grant, which meant I was supposed to carry out this project until its completion. This is why I’m still collaborating with the Centre of Contemporary Art, but I'm no longer the artistic director.

AM: So what are you doing right now?

DD: I’m starting with a new type of engagement, which is, in a certain sense, the result of what I was doing in Toruń. The idea of transdisciplinarity shaped my entire program, and I sought to address it through various exhibitions. Initially, with the show “Spaceship Earth”, which connected art and science, as well as architecture, design, fashion… everything to do with the application of technologies, from the 60s till today… In a certain way, “Wonderingmode” was a spin-off of this exhibition, one that addressed the intersection and hybridisation of predominantly fashion-related practices in a more direct way. I did a great deal of research and became very interested in forms of creativity connected to fashion, but at the same time, very distant from what we conventionally call fashion and the fashion industry. While researching for this exhibition, I realised I would like to find a way to work more on this subject. So, now, I’m working on the possibility of establishing a platform, a kind of research centre, which will bring together artists, architects, fashion designers… In practice, it’s something in between an academic and museum approach, and will consist of lectures, workshops, exhibitions… so even if it’s a different frame than that of the “art world”, for me, it is still the same type of curatorial approach. It is something that really belongs deeply to what I have always been interested in, even before I got involved with art professionally… So now I am at the beginning of this new adventure, where I basically have to create something from scratch.

AM: It’s more like a research or an academic position?

DD: As I mentioned, I see it as a practice which has to do with the sphere of education, but at the same time, it’s quite experimental and open. The project I’m working on right now is called “Transfashional”, so it is about the possibility of transcending the boundaries of the conventional notion of fashion through cross-disciplinary projects. One segment of it consists of working with the idea of poly-sensoriality, involving people who work with sound, smell, taste, and touch in relation to fashion. Actually, I am pretty much surrounded by people with an artistic background or from fields such as new technology or scientific research.

AM: Basically, it doesn’t sound like it would have anything in common with the Gustav Metzger show...

DD: Not at all, no (laughs). Well, you know, the funny thing is, I was doing a lot of research and found out that some of the people I am involved with in the fashion project were somehow involved with Metzger. So it doesn’t have any concrete relation, although Pontus Kyander, the co-curator of the exhibition, found in Metzger’s private archives fashion drawings made by him and his brother in the 40s! Believe it or not (laughs). 
So you never know where fashion can pop up. 
But I don’t see this new engagement as something remarkably different from what I was doing. Of course, it is in a different context, but at the same time, I don’t see why I should have some career pattern.

AM: Tell me about this program that you made especially for Toruń. It was like four years of exhibitions and collateral events. Some of them were quite big, like Gustav Metzger’s show, which is perhaps the biggest solo show held at the CCA. How would you sum up your program at the very end of it?

DD: When I was contacted to apply for this position, I was asked to make a proposal for a program. I prepared a fairly concrete outline for the four years, considering that it needed to be “designed” for a young institution still defining its identity and communicating with an audience not very familiar with contemporary art language. Toruń wasn’t a place with a very developed art scene, so I was asking myself how I could create a program that would be sophisticated in terms of ideas, showcase artists working at a high level, and, at the same time, be communicative to a broader audience. 
Transdisciplinarity was a keyword. Also, thematic coherence and the relationship between different exhibitions, whether group or personal, were important points. The thematic track was given by large-scale group exhibitions, conceived as presentations of current art but through specific historical perspectives. They dealt with the continuity (or discontinuity) of certain artistic approaches, from the 60s or ‘70s up to today. 
For instance, the first one, “Spaceship Earth”, was about art/science/technology/ecology, as addressed today through a variety of practices and artistic approaches, but with Buckminister Fuller as its ‘hero’; “Theater of Life” which dealt with art/theatre/sound/dance referred to John Cage, while the latest one, “Arena”, refers to Joseph Beuys in it’s attempt to talk about role of artist as a social agent… 
So, across all these exhibitions, the majority of artists were young, but their work was thematically contextualised in relation to, according to me, some important historical figures and moments. 
I was also keen to include Polish artists, and in particular some who haven't often been presented in Poland, such as Piotr Kowalski, who to me is incredibly fascinating, but since he left Poland early, he is seen more as French, or Alicja Kwade, who is big in Germany… 
The second important aspect of this program for me was to interlink exhibitions thematically. To take this latest season as an example: we started with “Arena,” then had a solo project with Alfredo Jaar, and then a retrospective of Gustav Metzger… I was hoping that, in this way, the audience could get deeper into the art we were showing, learn more, and make connections… 
On the other hand me being a foreigner, asking myself how I can do something for an institution like this, which is not positioned in the centre, I came up with the idea to invite foreign curators to make research in Poland, to select an artist or artists and curate a show for Toruń, which we would produce a catalogue for and also some new works. Part of this project was that Polish artists might then be presented in some of the foreign institutions from which the curators were coming. I’m glad to say this part worked really well, too. 
So even if transdisciplinarity and an international orientation were key to differentiating my program from the previous curatorial team's program (which I think was also very good and sophisticated), I also wanted to maintain some continuity. In particular, the efforts of Joanna Zielińska and other curators have raised awareness of the collection's importance. So I decided to continue with that, and we did a few exhibitions about collecting.

AM: When it comes to Joanna Zielińska and her team, the point is that they actually did a quite sophisticated, as you said, interesting program, but they actually failed when it came to communicating this program to the outside world, also to the local art scene, including the politics and people who were deciding about the future of the institution. What is your impression when it comes to you and to your program? What was the result of your activities for this institution, for this art scene?

DD: You know, for me, it is hard to judge. I think others can judge whether this program was interesting, whether it had some appeal, and how it appeared nationally or locally. I know that everything I did was done with a certain idea, a certain strategy.

AM: But did you have some feedback from the local artists or “local people” – whatever that means?

DD: I can’t say that I was really searching for feedback from the generation of artists who are teaching in the academy. I immediately understood that if this centre has any sense at all, it is if it is helpful for the younger generations. I was motivated to open the program to projects devoted to young artists, and I asked curators Piotr Lisowski and Marta Kołacz to develop that idea. I just told them: ‘This is the space, this is the money’, and I would like to do a program with students and young artists - something to allow these young people to grow creatively and intellectually. The curators and the artists/students were free to do whatever they wanted, and, of course, they made the most of the occasion and created “PRZEprojekt”. 
Later, I asked Piotr Lisowski to develop this work further with young Torunian artists, putting them in dialogue/confrontation with other young Polish artists. 
I tried to foster the idea that this Centre shouldn’t only be a place in which you have to do a program for a general public which still doesn’t have enough knowledge to understand the language of contemporary art fully. So one point was to have an educational approach towards the audience, through certain types of large-scale thematic exhibitions. Still, as I said, I think that if there is a purpose for a place like CCA, it is to be useful to local younger artists and whatever is happening there – let’s say, a potential art circle. For me, this potentiality was seen through young people. 
After four years, I have to say that I have seen a big change, both in the quality of the work of young Torunian artists and in the structure of the audience that frequents the Centre: it is also very young, fresh and numerous. 

AM: These shows that you curated in Toruń - were they also travelling abroad, or were they specifically dedicated to this particular venue?

DD: No, they were specifically done for this institution. In the beginning, I was focused on making CCA a functional place and also orienting myself within this, for me, new context. If I stayed longer, I would go more toward seeking partnerships, exchanges, and more contacts within the Polish art scene. But these four years were also quite intense, energy- and time-consuming, just in doing what we were doing in that moment. But Metzger’s retrospective will be shown in Norway later this year, and we hope to extend the tour. 

AM: Was it intense because you had to establish relations with the team and the institution? How would you comment on it? Recently, very strange things have been leaking out of the CCA. 

DD: This institution had very bad press when I arrived. Before engaging with CCA in Torun, I had a connection with the magazine run by Paweł Łubowski, but I didn’t know him personally. I was in touch with Marta Smolińska, a co-editor of Artluk, and she informed me about the open call for artistic director. I agreed to submit my application and program proposal, but I wasn't really expecting to find myself in Toruń. In the beginning, it wasn’t easy to overcome these inner conflicts and, at the same time, navigate the Polish art scene. As soon as I got there, I realised that most of the Polish art establishment had signed a petition. I really had to find the right way to make this institution appear more serious and more professional. As a foreigner, I also thought that I might bring something different from anybody else, and that’s what I tried to do. At the same time, I tried to give in-house curators opportunities. I worked with the entire team to help them grow professionally. Now, this institution can really carry out high-level projects. It would really be a pity if that were lost. I don’t know precisely what the local authorities' plans are.
There were some voices about the open call for the new director, and it was supposed to be in February, but nothing has happened so far. For the moment, Krzysztof Białowicz, a senior curator, is holding the position of acting director. The program of exhibitions for 2015 is the one assembled by Paweł Lubowski. When asked by the local Torun press about my opinion on the direction of CCA, I suggested a simple, logical consideration: this institution should be treated like all other important Polish institutions for contemporary art. There are high-profile professionals in the position of director at important institutions such as Zachęta and Warsaw MoMA, Muzeum Sztuki in Łódź, MOCAK in Kraków... I mean, people who know what such an institution means and have the motivation to run it properly. A cultural institution can’t be run by the same parameters applied to, let’s say, a company; it doesn't only have to be subjected to quantitative judgments (like the number of tickets sold, for instance). There are many qualitative parameters to consider when evaluating the work of a cultural institution, and it is important that the authorities responsible for the institution have this awareness.  

AM: During the last four years, have you had any opportunity to curate shows outside of Toruń? Or is this the only venue that you have worked for?

DD: Bigger projects I only did in CCA in Torun, maybe some smaller ones I was doing elsewhere.

AM: Previously, before you started to work at CCA Toruń, you were working in many venues.

DD: Yes. I was working within different institutional contexts. After graduating in Italy, I began working as a curator at the then-newly opened Museum of Contemporary Art in Rome. Besides some exhibitions, I curated a lecture series, “Art Highlights”, for 5 years, which brought to Rome some of the biggest names in the art world. My concern was how to do something that will, on the one hand, raise the visibility of this new museum in international circles, and on the other, identify a museum as a place of the production of meaning, not just an exhibition site. At first, I was interested in exploring different curatorial approaches through the involvement of veterans like Harald Szeemann, Jan Hoet, Achille Bonito Oliva… as well as those of a new generation, like Hans Ulrich Obrist, Daniel Birnbaum, Nicolas Bourriaud… I was also very much interested in transdisciplinarity, inviting not only artists and curators, but also people active in fashion, design, architecture… and later some protagonists of the then really new, emerging scenes, like China, India, the Middle East…
On the other hand, I’ve also worked within a quite different institutional frame, together with my mother, Biljana Tomic, with whom I made one of the biggest, for those years, platforms for young artists and art students - a project called “Real Presence” which gathered in Belgrade more than 1500 participants from all over the world. And when we started, we had just one computer and two phones… and a lot of enthusiasm, because we wanted to mark the beginning of democratic change in 2001, after the fall of Milosevic’s government. It is probably for this reason that I paid so much attention to young artists in Toruń. 

AM: What would be your opinion on the Polish art scene after all these years of struggling here for good and for bad?

DD: I think I always did really good PR for Poland because I’m amazed by the high level of artists, of the generally high level of intellectual discourse here. I was deeply impressed by the consistency of the curatorial approach and artistic projects. I really didn’t know what to expect when I arrived, but what I felt here was a kind of energy, like when you’re surfing on a wave that’s going up. I think you have a fantastic amount of energy, willingness, and a lot of young people in the scene who are opening galleries, creating their own networks and so on. My impression, and I think also of when I was inviting foreign curators here to do research (and some of them did quite thorough research), is that  Warsaw is the place to be. Something is really happening here, and I think Poland is very well on track to integrate into this broader sphere of international art.

AM: From my perspective, you were always very alone here in Torun. Something like ‘all by yourself’ when it came to support from the institution (or rather lack of support). On the other hand, there was no real team either, because it was somewhat destroyed amid the institutional crisis... At the same time, here you have got in the middle of this very tough situation with Paweł Lubowski being boycotted and so on. Another negative factor was the unfortunate presence of another Italian curator, namely Fabio Cavallucci, at CCA Ujazdowski Castle in Warsaw. How did you manage to handle all those things?

DD: When I came to Toruń, Daniel Muzyczuk and Agnieszka Pindera were still curators here, although they were in the moment when their contracts were expiring... My first gesture was to involve them anyway. But later, it became clear that they could not maintain their position in CCA. I also told them, quite openly, that they were too talented to stay in Toruń forever. They had to move on and seek a wider platform. CCA in Toruń has a fantastic building; it’s a great facility, but when you are doing something, you need a bigger parterre to address. Especially if you are a young curator, after a while, it’s important to measure yourself against an environment that can stimulate you more. 
Regarding Fabio Cavallucci- we didn't know each other before. We met in Poland and worked on one project together: an exhibition of Robakowski. If you ask me about my approach as a foreigner, I have a certain sensitivity because I was always a foreigner. Even when I was working in Italy, I was a foreigner. I know what it means to be in a place where you have a certain kind of communication gap anyway. Not because you don’t speak the language, but simply because the field of reference is different. The way we translate things in our heads is different because it depends on our education and the cultural frames we acquire. When dealing with complicated situations, I have come to understand that sometimes it is good to take a step back, think more carefully, be sensitive to the context, and learn from it... Anyhow, I think it’s important for Poland not to close itself to foreign curators, just because of the Cavallucci’s episode with CCA in Warsaw. 
I see my experience in Poland as quite positive. As artistic director, I was curating my exhibitions, but I felt a responsibility towards young curators - to allow them to grow and progress professionally. They also had to have the possibility to do what they wanted. I think that you can get the best when you just give people the chance to do what they feel is right. Of course, you can make a mistake – for sure, I didn’t make all the right moves, and not everything was magnificent. Of course, I had some compromises. Having Paweł Lubowski as director meant that I had to accept certain compromises, especially at the beginning. Later, Lubowski didn’t mess with the program. Besides, he faced some pressure from the local community and the local authorities. Probably, he wasn’t the most adequate person for the position of director of the institution in the first place, because he has a different background, being an artist and someone who worked mostly in publishing. In order to run a big institution, it’s important and valuable to have institutional background and experience in managing a museum. 

AM: If there was just one project that you did in Toruń and which you would like to represent or think of as the most important to you, what would it be?

DD: That is a very difficult question. I don’t know, you can’t choose just one... If I had to say which is the topic that I liked to engage myself in the most, that’s for sure the exhibition at the very beginning: ‘Spaceship Earth’. It was an exhibition that was never meant to be done in such rush and under such tensions. But nevertheless, thematically speaking, I was always deeply intrigued by correlations between art and science, and I still feel very connected to the topics that the artists who were shown in this exhibition address.